It would be a good idea to post the Latin texts as well so everyone can compare and contrast on screen.
You know what, I was able to read almost every word of that (speaking English as I have from almost my first words! - before that I gurgled alot and threw up occasionally) without having to use a dictionary. It kind of makes one think that perhaps the ICEL would like to keep this under wraps for as long as possible, or something. Maybe there's an AGENDA there? Don't really approve of this kind of formalism? Fortunately I don't take my cues from people like ICEL, so at mass I already loudly answer with "And with THY spirit", say "I Believe..." in the creed, and usually make the preface responses and others in Latin, whatever the language of the mass I'm attending. It just saves confusion, and keeps me from contributing to the already abysmal standard of American Catholic worship. I heard a story the other day, about the first folk mass celebrated in my diocese. The woman who as a 16 year-old girl attended it told of how she and her class were taken as a group to "something special" at the cathedral. At the door nuns collected everyone's traditional missal and mantilla, never to return, though they weren't told that at the time (and hand missals weren't cheap and still aren't!), but she wouldn't give hers up. The nun tried to force it from her, but my friend held onto it tenaciously. Finally the nun gave up, and my friend recounted being told to come up and surround the altar, the singing of vernacular folk music, etc. She said, and I quote, "I felt as if I was being raped." The abuse by the church in the United States isn't confined to pederasty. At least one generation has been psychologically traumatised and distinctly violated, and that violent trauma is being perpetuated by the very people who perpetuate that legacy under the guise of ICEL. Just check their attitued in this case. Thank you, thank you, thank you, for shining a light on the obstructive and pointless work of these faceless beurocrats. But they, too, shall pass, and their comic-book, throw-away version of Catholicism sense with them.
Thanks for the service, Anon. Last time they yanked the draft, I neglected to save a copy.Won't happen this time.
Excellent work - many thanks. It's time the bishops woke up. Times they are a-changing and the faithful priests and people need to let their so-called shepherds know we've had enough procrastination. If they don't like the heat, they can get out of the episcopal kitchens.
We ought to try and get every one to blog this or link to it.
Can't stop the signal.(If you've seen Serenity you will understand this comment.)
Thanks! I`d seen this on a couple of blogs yesterday (besides the H of C)but when I went back to snag a copy, I couldn`t remember where.
You see, I don't like "and with thy / your spirit."What DOES it mean? Is my spirit an entity distinct from me from "I"? Well? Is my spirit the Holy Spirit? Please God no....Sorry, this gets a thumns down, I can't say it, I have NO idea what the heck it means. If you mean peace to me, then say ME, i.e. and also with YOU.
I'm sorry, I was thinking of two different things and conflated them:I meant this:"The Lord be with youAnd with your spirit."NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.
Okay, linking now.
Good service, I think that ICEL can put less pressure on you than on a priest.
Interesting.FWIW, I think the "stand in your presence and serve you" in EPII is a little unfortunate. It may be the best way to translate, all things considered, but this has occasioned mischief by those who don't like kneeling. The sense of the Latin is less about physical posture (standing, kneeling, prostrate) and more about nearness, proximity, immediacy to the Almighty. Alas, this might call for a less-than-literal translation, and that sets some on edge.The repeated genuflections to "inclusive language" grate on me. I really think it's a mistake in the Creed to omit "men" in, "for us men and for our salvation..."It matters less in EPII, where it is simply grating. Who but a handful of very tiresome people would still complain, if the text simply returned, periodically, to the classic and still commonly used term "man" as referring to the entirety of the human race? There is a theological point here, and it's the same for the Creed and EP IV -- it has to do with the First Adam/Second Adam Christology. When humanity is referred to as a singular -- i.e., "man," -- this provides a very helpful symmetry between Adam - Man - Christ, so that saying, he became man is far more expressive than he became a human being. I'm not saying this is heresy, but it is a missed opportunity to use language in a way that not only expresses a key theological point but, moreover, is in this case, very much in line with Biblical language. And the only reason we don't do it is because of these nattering nags for "inclusion."
I'm sorry, in my last post, I did not mean to say the inclusive language was an issue in EPII, but only in EPIV...
At last! Wow this is really something.
This is a translation that Archbishop Thomas Cramner would be proud of. (But that was 500 years ago!)Compare it to the Book of Common Prayer he drafted, still used in England. (Is the new ICEL translation reflective of English as a "living language?")
No, you're missing the point. This IS a translation that a lot of old gin-swilling ex-Anglican gay clergy would be proud of: because, nearly exclusively, that's who made it! They (in part) swam the Tiber because they could not share their altars (and rectory drinks sessions) with women, and now they not only have women-free altars, but they've managed to re-write the Catholic liturgy so it will sound and feel just like their old Knott English Missals and SSPP Anglican Missals did before they picked up their skirts and fled Canterbury for Rome!!!Now they are inflicting all their baggae on the rest of the Roman Church!What frauds!!!NOTE to Fr Martin Fox: in the first draft of the Ordo Missae translation, they (most agree it was Big George Pell) tried to get away with translating 'stand' as 'be' - which of course fliues totally in the face of their own insturctions about literal translations: more hypocrisy!!!
thank you for sharing the work of both ICEL and Vox Clara, why do the hierachies worry about the lay faithful seeing the proposed translations!
Hey I heard that the "PRO MULTIS" thing was coming back into the new liturgy. (For those who don't know what that is, the PRO MULTIS is the mis-translation - or Protestant infiltration, whatever the case may be - from the original Latin of the Tridentine Rite, from which this new Mass is supposed to be based, in the consecration of the Precious Blood which says "for ALL" instead of "for MANY") I also noticed that it still hasn't changed.I'm not sure now whether the announcement I heard about the word "all" being replaced by the proper translation "many" was a legitimate one, or whether they just said that to shut up the purists and conservatives who wish to attend the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass with a real consecration which is itself scripturally and historically sound. I might be wrong (and I hope I am), but I think that someone is pulling the wool over our eyes.I regularly attend the Tridentine Mass, and have not been around to see the further decay of the Novus Ordo since I stopped going there seven years ago, and am absolutely appalled at the state it is in. It's no wonder so many more people are coming back to Tradition!I can see that in some parts of this new Liturgy, they have changed some of the words and phrases to be more accurate with the Latin (I.E. "and with thy spirit" and "visible and invisible"), which I suppose in itself is a good thing. But these minor alterations are so few, and they have neglected to change the single most fundamental mistake of the Liturgy, in the single most important part of the Mass - the very Consecration itself!When are they going to wake up and realise that the more they change it from the original authentic text to suit our "dumb" society today, the more they are creating something which is becoming less and less Catholic, and more and more Protestant.Antz Drouin, Vic, Australia(any replies can be emailed to me at firstname.lastname@example.org)
I am not surprised to see liberal homophobia (or self-hatred perhaps?) rear its ugly head on this thread. Any rational person will recognize that "Chris" is a troll raising a red-herring. Excellent translation by the way. Hurrah for Father Harbert, the Vox Clara commission and their associates. I'm sure the laity as a whole will be quite pleased with it. I can already hear "Now THAT's much better Father!" coming from the laity as they exit mass on Sunday morning.
On "stand in your presence": the word rendered "stand" is "astare", which has rather the sense of "standing by," i.e., to help, rather than "stand" as a posture. For comparison think of the Spanish "estar", which, not surprisingly, generally corresponds to the way we use "be" in English, rather than the way we use "stand". (In a language like German, it's different: The door "stands" open, the pot "sits" on the table, etc., whereas in English we just say the door "is" open, the pot "is" on the table. Hence, translation should be literal but also INTELLIGENT.)Perhaps a good rendering would be "assist": astare coram te et tibi ministrare, to assist before you and minister unto you. This recaptures the sense of "assisting" at Mass, but my suggestion is not very fluid English.As for "pro multis," I think anonymous Antz is wrong. "For many" in English generally implies "not for all," which is theologically and dogmatically not true about the death of Christ. Antz asserts that "for all" is Protestantized. Actually, it is Calvin who maintains that Christ died for many (not all); the Church believes that Christ died for all. I am sure Antz did not mean to endorse Calvinism.In addition to the dogmatic reason, there is also a linguistic reason to prefer "for all" in English. The Latin "pro multis" renders a semitic expression which means "for all." Another example is "many are called but few chosen": it means, idiomatically, "All are called, but NOT ALL are chosen."(On this point see Joachim Jeremias, *Eucharistic Words of Jesus*; there is also a good essay on many are called... in Ben Meyer, *Christus Faber*)Dr. Jeremy WilkinsUniversity of St Thomas / St Mary's Seminary, Houston
I've just discovered (1 June) that the text of this great site has been deleted. What a wonderul service it offered. And what a pity it was (presumably) forced to delete the texts.I guess the might of the non-Christian ICEL just got to be too much.However, I'me sure a lot of people will have already saved the actual text to other documents. Long may they appear on the internet.
What good is a mass translation that people do not understand. For example, the person who wanted a literal translation saying "for many" fell into Calvinism!Another person thinks the word "stand" in Eucharistic Prayer II is unfortunate due to its reference to posture, but then a scholar tells us that while "stand" may be literal, the intent is to "stand with" or "assist." Both of these examples explain the reason we should be calling for the continued use of dynamic equivalence today rather than a literal translation of the great prayers of our Tradition.That was the reason dynamic equivilence was adopted in the first place in the Roman Missal of Paul VI.It is also important to remember that the people's sung ordinary of the mass (Kyrie, Gloria, Nicene Creed, Sanctus, Angus Dei), first adopted into the New Order of Mass for English-speaking countries, was translated by an international group of scholars from many different Christian traditions to express, in contemporary English, the intent of the Latin meaning. (This translation was not carried out by ICEL, but by the International Consulation on English Texts, Inc., then known as ICET. ICEL incorporated these translations into the Roman Rite.) These ICET texts have been used by many Christian denominations around the English-speaking world who have come to a renewed understanding that the Mass is the central celebration of Sunday. (The informative booklet with those ICET 1960s and 70s texts was called, PRAYERS WE HAVE IN COMMON, explaining the reason for every word of the English translations.)Not only is spirit of the Second Ecumenical Council gone, but now it will be manifest in the ecumenical "prayers we no longer have in common" with other Churches and ecclesiastical communities--in English speaking territories.It is one thing to re-translate the celebrant's prayers to express theological accuracy. It is another thing to re-translate [independently of the other Churches and ecclesiastical communities] the people's responses, prayers, and acclamations which are not inaccurate in their theology, but might become so if we are only concerned with word-for-word translation. (Rather than treating the issue as if we are in a linguistics class, liturgy is about a moment of worship of the Father, through the Son, and in the Holy Spirit-- a moment which may also enlighten God's people through accurate understanding of the intent and meaning of the Latin, i.e., evangelization and catechesis.)"May [we] all be one."P.S. Is there another site where we can find the latest proposed translation?June 10, 2007
In a comment above, Dr. Jeremy Wilkins recommends The Eucharistic Words of Jesus, by one Joachim Jeremias. On page 179 of that work, Mr. Jeremias states that 'Hebrew and Aramaic possess no word for “all”'.The Hebrew word for “all” is הַכֹּלThe Aramaic word for “all” is kol.The justification for "for all" is based on remarkably poor scholarship.Dr. Wilkins might benefit from reading the Roman Catechism, which explains why our Lord deliberately said "for many" rather than "for all". It will explain to him why He did not mean all. He could also read the Gospel accounts of the Last Supper, especially in the Gospel of St. John, where our Lord says "I pray for them. I pray not for the world, but for them whom Thou hast given me." Read all of chapters 13-17 to be sure I am not taking His words out of context.The comment just before this one suggests that rather than a literal translation, "dynamically equivalent" words should be used. The New Living Translation is a dynamic equivalence Bible. Check out how it renders Matthew 26:28 and Mark 14:24. Even advocates of dynamic equivalence render our Lord's words as "for many"!
New Mass texts now published at World Youth Day site, together with musical setting.http://www.wyd2008.org/wydmass
What threat did ICEL use to enforce this removal? YOu ought to let them sue and see what happens.
This is great info to know.
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Thanks for sharing the link, but unfortunately it seems to be down... Does anybody have a mirror or another source? Please reply to my post if you do!I would appreciate if a staff member here at newmasstexts.blogspot.com could post it.Thanks,Mark
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